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Podcast transcript

Corey Grandstaff:

Welcome to the Blind COVID podcast. Blind COVID’s mission is to empower blind and low-vision people during the COVID-19 pandemic. Blind COVID aims to do this through increasing awareness of accessible resources, providing strategies, and sharing your stories and personal experiences for blind and low-vision Washingtonians. I’m your host Corey Grandstaff, and on today’s podcast we are going to be focusing on social distancing strategies. I am excited to have someone on our podcast today who has continued traveling through the COVID-19 pandemic, and they have been able to develop some effective social distancing strategies as a user of a cane. I also want to give you some updates before we go into this interview regarding our Blind COVID project. As I stated last podcast, the Blind COVID website is live. That’s blindcovid.com, B-L-I-N-D-C-O-V-I-d.com, and our access line is still operating. That number is (360) 947-3330. Again, that phone number is (360) 947-3330. So you can reach out to us if you have any access-related questions related to COVID-19.

Corey Grandstaff:

In our last podcast I also alluded that we were going to be having a video regarding social distancing strategies, and that video should now be live on our website, blindcovid.com. So let’s get down to this interview regarding social distancing strategies. I had a person come on the show, Mike Mellow, who works with Google right now. Mike has a various expertise, not only on social distancing strategies, but also on travel. Here’s my interview that I was able to conduct with Mike.

Hey Mike, thanks for joining us on the Blind COVID podcast today. I just wanted to ask you if you could talk a little bit about, you do a lot of traveling, so if you could talk about how travel has changed through COVID, how your perspective on travel has changed, and any difficulties you’ve ran into.

Mike:

Sure, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Corey. I appreciate being here. Gosh, it just feels like that question is so loaded. Everything has changed, right? So I have done a bit of just regular traveling around my own environments, but I’ve also done some traveling, like interstate, just some things I needed to take care of, and it is amazing how empty.

If we start out with airports, well, let’s start from the beginning. Getting into a Lyft and going to the airport is a whole new experience. You need to attest that you have a mask on. You have to then find your car. Sometimes now they have plastic barriers between the passenger and the drivers. So it’s hard to hear your driver. I use a long white cane. So I was trying to figure out how to store my cane, because the barrier blocked the normal passageway where I would put my cane. So getting in the car, it’s like you’re in a bubble. Going to the airport, the first thing I noticed is usually when I get out of the car I can hear people and orient myself into an entryway, because you never know where you’re going to get dropped off. There’s nobody at the airport. I mean, yes, there are people, but it’s like so less. Relying on those cues that I’ve become accustomed to, like listening for the door to open, listening for people rolling their bags, there just aren’t many people traveling. So I really needed to position myself and be like, okay, I think if I’m on this section of the sidewalk I need to walk forward a bit and find the entryway and then curve on into the airport.

The next big piece, once I get inside, is unfortunately other passengers are not as helpful because they don’t want to get near you. So they don’t verbalize. They don’t say things. Then I’m feeling a little self-conscious, because I don’t want to run into anybody. So I’m using my cane. I’m trying to navigate. But, of course, my cane isn’t six-feet long. At some point I realized there are markers on the floor, but that’s because I noticed that people were standing on certain areas. Those are not detectable. So all of a sudden I’m breaking the social distancing rules unintentionally, because I don’t know what’s there. But just getting through that process, wearing my face mask, and going through and getting to my gate and everything was definitely just a little bit more challenging because a lot of those cues that I relied on have gone away. But that said, staff has been super chill, super friendly, and being on the airplane itself felt safe and comfortable. Most airlines, now that they’re blocking the middle seats, but on the, probably I’d say four or five flights, or six flights I’ve been on this year thus far, I’ve never had anyone in my row. So it is a different feeling. But that said, it is a normal activity. You get on the plane, you go somewhere, and you get off a plane, and you go get your stuff, and you leave the airport.

It’s just that in-between time where you’re passing through places, or you’re using Uber’s, or if you might be reaching out for help for someone like, “Hey, is this gate such and such? people might step away, because it’s hard to tell where they are. They’re not speaking up as much. There are defined pathways that people are following. Maybe you exit through this door and enter through this door. But there’s no way for us as blind people to know that unless someone tells us. That’s been a challenge.

I haven’t done any train travel, but I have been on the bus. At least here in Seattle they were blocking off front seats and separating them so that there was a defined area for senior citizens or folks with disabilities that wanted to sit in the front area of the bus. But there isn’t a lot of communication about who’s already there, what’s going on. I didn’t even know there was a divider between the sections until I ran into it. They have markings on the seats where they’re blocking off certain rows. So it can be challenging to figure out, is this an open seat, or is this a seat that’s been blocked off for COVID, or is there someone already sitting here, and if there’s 10 empty seats I don’t want to sit next to them. So that’s been a trick. I find that it’s just helps to be a bit more verbal and just say, “Hey, is somebody sitting here?” and then reaching with my cane and tap. To any sighted folks listening, if you see a blind person looking for a seat or something and you want to stay distant, that’s fine. But please do say something. I don’t know where you are otherwise, and I might accidentally run into you if I don’t know you’re there.

Corey Grandstaff:

Right. Now, have you noticed a difference in your travel skills or anything like that as you’ve gone through this pandemic?

Mike:

Well, for the majority of the pandemic I really didn’t do any traveling, because we weren’t going anywhere. So being honest, I feel like my cane travel skills deteriorated, or at least my confidence deteriorated. I live in a neighborhood in North Seattle, and when we first moved here there was a couple of busy streets I needed to cross, and I probably would have never thought about crossing them. But then I hadn’t been traveling as much, and all of a sudden I was like, ooh, I need to really spend some time analyzing this and figuring out what’s going on, and feeling comfortable doing more exploring. It has changed my perspective.

I also have gotten used to wearing a face mask, but I do feel that it impedes some aspect of my ability to tell directions. I don’t know if it’s the straps on my ears. I don’t know if it’s just, I don’t know. I don’t know why it does, but I definitely remember when this started, if I was crossing the street I would take my mask off, and then cross and put it back on, because I just didn’t feel comfortable making that crossing decision. But now that I’m so used to wearing a darn mask all the time, I feel comfortable. But it almost felt like to me, like if you have ever worn a hood or a hat over years and then tried to travel, it just changes the dynamic a little bit. But yeah, I’ve noticed that.

I’ve also noticed too that, at least in our neighborhood and then where I used to live, a lot of ad hoc sidewalk cafes have popped up, and there’s just tons of extra stuff on the sidewalk. So maneuvering around that. Then also trying to be aware of social distancing. So like if I hear someone trying to move out of the way, but not always knowing if I move out of the way am I then going to bump the person that didn’t say anything? You know what I mean? So it’s a challenge. I’ve gotten used to it, and I think we can all get used to it. I guess my biggest advice would be get out there and just get your mask on and walk around. You don’t want to lose that confidence that you have as a traveler. When this is all over we still need to be able to be independent and travel.

Corey Grandstaff:

Yeah. One of the things we’ve been doing, a lot of focus groups across the state, and one of the things we keep hearing is people are really scared and nervous about taking Uber, taking Lyft, things like that. So is there anything you can share to help with some of those fears?

Mike:

I have taken a fair amount of Uber and Lyft, and I guess my only advice, and I’m not a doctor, right. But my only advice would be, be sure you wear a good mask. Put the windows down. Sit in the backseat only. In fact, I think you have to. Put your window down, and be sure to always sanitize your hands after you’re in the vehicle, because you don’t know what other surfaces have been touched in the car. Even if it’s cold and it’s uncomfortable to have the window down, or the driver seems to be uncomfortable, do it anyway. It helps with air flow. But it’s also appropriate to say, “Hey, you can give me directions to your vehicle or to whatever we’re doing,” and this is outside of Uber’s and Lyft’s too. You don’t have to be grabbed and touched by people, and you don’t have to touch people. I will very often say, “Oh, I want to keep some distance. So if you could just walk ahead of me and give me some verbal directions,” and go ahead and be a little forceful about that. It’s your personal space too. I think as people who are blind we often get grabbed and pulled and such, and that’s especially not okay right now, and it’s okay for us to say no, no, no, don’t do that.

Corey Grandstaff:

Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned one strategy already, but are there other strategies that you’ve been able to develop as you’ve continued shopping or done errands and such for maintaining that social distance?

Mike:

Yeah, it’s a little tricky. But I shop often at Trader Joe’s and at a local market here near where I live. I have found that if I have to go to the grocery store, and then sometimes I just want to, because there’s certain things I want to pick up, I like to take the full length, big old shopping cart, even if I’m going to get two things. I take the handle of that shopping cart, and I’ve either sanitized it or I’m wearing gloves, or whatever you’re comfortable with. I have the assistant walk at the other end. It’s not six-feet necessarily, but it’s more distance, and it gives us that physical spacer of the cart. That way, as we’re maneuvering through the store, I can follow behind the cart and completely avoid possibly bumping into anyone else because the cart would hit them first, and I assume that the assistant person would want to avoid that situation.

Then at check stands, now there’s plexiglass. I have full hearing, but I cannot hear when they’re mumbling behind the plexiglass sometimes. I’m like, what? It can be hard. It can be difficult, and I think we just need to have a little bit of patience. The biggest challenge that I’ve found is when I’ve done things where I want to go grab something where I know where it is, and I don’t need anyone to help, it’s finding the lines. Now lines are very spaced out and there’s visual markings on the floor. That is not helpful to a cane user. I’ve heard that some dog users have been able to teach their dogs to find those markings, which is awesome. But I use a cane and I just cannot find them. So I have been just more verbal, like, “Excuse me, is this the end of the line? Excuse me, is this the line?” Maybe that’s annoying, or maybe that puts you out of your comfort zone, but I think it’s better than putting yourself right up next to someone or accidentally cutting in the line because you didn’t realize that everyone’s standing six-feet apart.

So I think just being a little bit more verbal, putting the cart between you, and then all else fails you’ve got online grocery delivery services, and then even grocery pickup services. I have not done the pickup, but I’ve heard that a lot of people have success where they’ll go online, they’ll order their groceries, and then they can either go with a friend or with an Uber, or even depending on the size of the groceries you’re picking up, even your own backpack and just grab stuff. That way, you’ve minimized your time in the store. That said though, I’ve done a lot of in-store shopping and I feel like I’ve done the best I could to stay safe. That’s all we can do. As long as you wear your protective gear and when you get home you immediately wash your hands and minimize those contacts. If I don’t need to go to the store, I don’t. I don’t go to places just to browse around anymore, like, I guess window shop, if you will.

Corey Grandstaff:

Yeah. If we can, obviously people are starting to do this online grocery shopping a little bit moreso, and accessibility is always a concern. So what are some of the platforms you’ve found that provide the most accessibility?

Mike:

Sure. I think that’s a little relative. It just depends on your experiences and your comfort level too. I believe that some folks find the app experience, like using the native app for whatever service you’re using, either Amazon or Instacart or Safeway, on your iPhone or Android phone to be more accessible. I often prefer to do my shopping on the computer because I guess I just find it to be easier for me to use heading navigations and searching and things like that. But it all comes down to personal preferences. I do think the major shopping platforms have had pretty major strides in accessibility and work well. In our house I pretty much use Amazon and Safeway, and both of those work well. They have their quirks, but for the most part they work pretty well.

Corey Grandstaff:

All right. Well, thank you. Is there anything else that you want to share before we go on our way today?

Mike:

I guess I would just say I know that this time can be pretty frustrating and scary for everybody, but we have just as much right to be out in the world as everyone else. If you’re being careful and you’re making sure that you are distancing and doing the best you can do, it’s okay if you make a mistake, and it’s okay for you to be out there being in the world. So try to remember that you belong there just as much as anyone else.

Corey Grandstaff:

Yeah, thank you.

Corey Grandstaff:

So just to summarize after that interview with Mike, there were a lot of different social distancing strategies. Talked about things like using your voice more to advocate for yourself, asking people where the lines start, holding onto the back of the car and having the person in the store be in front of the cart. You can check out our video to see some of the strategies in action. Also, we heard from Mike regarding various strategies he used while traveling. We also heard about some accessibility-related things regarding online shopping. So I hope this experience today by listening to this interview is really hopeful for you. Again, you can always contact us if you would like to be a part of this podcast, if you have a story you want to share, and hopefully we can get you on. Till the next time, stay safe, wear your mask, wash your hands, and maintain your six-feet of distance.